Algorithm overwhelm, adapting to the space, and having no blueprint: Sagid Carter x Club Carter Radio

• Sagid Carter is the creator of Club Carter Radio, a YouTube-based radio show based in Amsterdam, built around independent discovery
• The shows spans across indie, electronic and alternative sounds, and is paired with light commentary and correspondingly compelling visuals.
• After years in Dutch radio (including FunX, 3FM, 3voor12 Radio and VPRO), Sagid left the traditional system to build something slower, simpler, and more human.

Falling into Dutch radio (and outgrowing it)

Thanks so much for talking to us Sagid, can you tell us your story up til now?

Yeah, so I studied journalism. When I got out of high school, I went to go to a journalism school, which was a waste of time and money, to be honest (laughs) because I was at the precipice of where the internet was obviously already changing the landscape a lot and my school didn’t really know how to handle that transition. One of the classes I got was like, ‘How to search on Twitter’, and I was like, “I feel like we could give you this class”. Then we still got like these old school classes about how to make TV and then we would walk around with these hugest cameras where I was like, “everybody’s actually doing it with a small camera now..”.

But here in the Netherlands, I was also one of the last generations that was able to go to school and actually got money from the government to go so I didn’t have to take out a loan, but you had to finish it within four years. So I just finished it, then right out of school I got a message from my cousin and she was like, “you actually have a very nice voice to listen to, shouldn’t you look like work at a radio station?”. I was like,” hmm, never thought about it,”, and then I, applied to be a producer and to be a radio DJ. Never had anything done in radio before, but I got invited for both jobs actually. They were like you don’t have any background in radio, but we would like to like train you.

I did that for a year and a half, and then slowly I also started working in the night hours. I don’t know if that’s the same in the UK, but here you start with these terrible hours where you work from like 2:00 to 4:00 in the morning.

So that wasn’t fun, but I learned a lot very quick, and that is basically how I kind of like rolled into the traditional radio DJ job. Then I went from one station to another station, and then things actually picked up pretty fast. I think at one point, and that was like three years ago, I was in the business and I understood the politics of music and radio and all that kind of stuff, and a lot of stuff was changing behind the scenes.

I thought, “I actually kind of like rolled into this radio thing”. It wasn’t really something that I chose actively. I had to have a job when I was done with school and I got accepted and then everything just kept going, but I never really actively chose it. So that’s when I decided to quit. I felt like mostly I was like playing the hits that didn’t really spark anything within me. I just started to feel a little dirty after a while as like a music lover.

So I quit and then it actually took me two years before I came up with this idea, because first I thought, I don’t like radio, but then I realized, no, actually I do, I just don’t like the way it’s been done or the way that I’ve been doing it in the past.

So that’s what’s inspired Club Carter Radio ’cause I realized there were two things:

One, none of my friends, including me was listening to radio to begin with. Like the old school radio? I know in the UK it’s different, but over here. Like the country’s pretty small, the people that listen to radio either have a car, which not a lot of young people have, or like the older construction people who are listening to it while they’re working on the streets or the people in offices. But other than that, not many young people are listening to radio. It feels weird to make something that I don’t listen to myself anymore.

Then the second thing was like the music that I was playing. So when I came up with the idea for Club Carter Radio, I was like, “I should do it in a place where I frequently go to”, which was YouTube.

I was like, “why is nobody doing this? Okay, so I’m just gonna take out everything that I hated when I was still working in traditional radio, being commercials, too much talking, music that I don’t like., and also make it on demand so you can just listen to it whenever you want”.

So those were the four things that I decided to take out. It’s just trying to find your own lane and just trying to figure out what speaks to you.

That’s really interesting that you didn’t plan to work in music.

Yeah so when I was little, I always wanted to be a news anchor. I would love to like explain stuff to people. There was also a time in my life where I was like heavily into theatre, into acting. I was in the presenting sphere kind of thing, but radio was never on my radar like as a job.

I do think that’s it actually been to my advantage. When I started working on radio, I met all these other coworkers who were like radio addicts, they knew everybody, every DJ, and I was like, “I don’t know who these people are”. I think sometimes that’s actually good because when you don’t know the rules, you just follow your intuition, your gut, and I think that was a big upside to it.

That’s also what made it easier for me to switch from traditional radio to what I’m doing now, because I wasn’t confined by all these rules and all like this world that was so set in stone, you know?

The problems with modern listening

I noticed my friends saying that they got sick of their Spotify algorithm. It was kind of like becoming the same thing that people have with radio where they’re like, “I don’t even know what type of playlist to put on anymore”.

We’ve come so full circle that people just want someone to curate it for them because they’re like,” I can’t just keep doing the same playlist over and over again”. And then now you have like the whole AI thing, and you have like this system where songs are being played that you didn’t even put in your playlist and stuff like that, like weird stuff happening.

So that was another reason why I was like, “huh.. so we need to find something that’s right in between, which feels like curation but isn’t repeating constantly, which feels true”.

That was another thing, oversaturation. I didn’t want that overwhelming feeling of music.

Maybe this is also something that you guys recognize, but at one point I was listening to so much music and then, you know, you put these songs in your playlist, and then I would be in a store and I would be like, “Oh my God, I know this song word for word, but don’t ask me which artist it is”. That’s when I thought like, “oh, that’s a problem”.

When I talk to my parents, they can be like, “that’s this song from this artist, from this album that came on this year”, because in the end of the day, it’s like music is art. I think platforms like a Spotify or Apple Music, streaming services have made it into this disposable endless product that we don’t really care about anymore.

We’ve come so full circle that people just want someone to curate it for them because they’re like,” I can’t just keep doing the same playlist over and over again”.

Another thing I wanted to bring back a little bit, where you give some context about the song that you’re playing, the artist that you’re listening to, kind of like a listening party that people used to have with their friends. I’ve never experienced them, but when I listen to my parents, I’m like, “oh my god, so you guys would just like hang out and listen to music?” And I was like, this actually sounds pretty cool.

Building Radio for the Internet

So what’s your thoughts on online independent radios like NTS and the like, and why didn’t you go in that direction?

I think almost in Europe, I think almost every radio station really looks up to the UK when it comes to radio in general. At the station where we used to work at, we would look at BBC Radio 1 actually. I know for a lot of artists it’s like a curse word ’cause it’s like commercial and nobody listens to it, but like if you compare it to the Netherlands, like BBC Radio 1 is actually a little bit more alternative than it would be over here.

Sometimes I would go to the NTS website and I would be like, “oh my god, who do I wanna listen to?”. Like that overwhelming feeling that I described with Spotify. So that was the main reason. Also because I felt like I don’t wanna run a radio station. If you are doing that, it’s like a job job, right? They have like these schedules of people coming in and having to do shows and I felt like, no, that’s not what I want to do right now, right now I just wanna make a weekly show.

But maybe down the line, I don’t know, Club Carter Radio, maybe expands. Maybe I’ll invite other people to host shows, but right now, this felt the easiest way because I was familiar with the playlist culture on YouTube and like the DJ sets that people do.

So that made it the most logical step. It’s accessible as well, everyone goes on YouTube, everyone listens to music and is looking for new music.

What’s your inspiration behind your visuals? They’re so cool.

Thank you so much. So I think that’s why Club Carter Radio is so special to me ’cause it feels like it’s a combination of everything that I’ve done in the past.

I’ve always been making videos, walking around with my camera, always like trying to like create a vibe or like something in my editing, and I feel like with Club Carter Radio, all of that comes together. I can share music, I can host, and then I can like dress it up with the videos and the visuals that I find and I look for.

Before I make a show, I try to see like what visual fits the song a little bit. I am aware that most people just put it on while they do something else, and I just find it a nice idea that when you do take a look, that it matches what it is that you’re listening to.

It’s most of all, it’s so much fun.

I think the best advice all creators can get. It’s like whenever you miss something, make it yourself. I think that’s what I learned when I was working in radio. I was like, I’m making something that I don’t listen to, which is weird. Like, why am I making something that I don’t enjoy?

I think you should always make something that you would listen to, something that you would watch ’cause then it’s easy to translate that feeling.

I think the best advice all creators can get. It’s like whenever you miss something, make it yourself… I think you should always make something that you would listen to/watch ’cause then it’s easy to translate that feeling.

I told my boyfriend, if I would see someone doing this right now, I would be so mad. I would be like, how did I not come up with this idea? And that’s how I knew, so then this is something that I need to do.

What challenges have you faced so far with things?

I wanna say that on the side, I work in voice acting which has been funding me, so I am very lucky that I don’t have to make money with this, and that makes it very easy to do it. As of right now, knocking on wood for me, no. There’s no pressure.

What it is is just me sharing music, and now also something that I’ve always wanted: a community of people talking to each other. That idea of like if I would ever do a live show that people would show up, like that means the world, right? So in that sense, no, there aren’t challenges.

I also have the time to do it. I think that for some people that might be a challenge. Obviously the fact that the show is growing also makes it so much easier because if there were like a hundred people watching every single week, it just makes it easier to be like: “you know what? nobody cares I’m gonna just give up”; because this is not like my first time trying to make content.

I think anybody who’s like tried to do something online knows how hard it is when people are not watching or listening. You kind of second guess yourself quite a lot because you look back and you are just like, “should I have done this a bit differently? Should I have done that? But then it’s obviously baby steps to get it going as well. When things go too well, I just get very nervous and I almost wanna reject whatever it is that that’s happening. I’ve always said like, I don’t want to go viral ’cause then you have like this huge thing and then you have to maintain that, and the only way is down, right?

If we have to say like, what is my goal for Club Carter Radio? It’s longevity.

This might be my only struggle: there’s not a blueprint for what it is that I’m doing. A good example is like, you know with YouTube thumb thumbnails and titles. I was like, “how am I going to put in a thumbnail in a title that I’m like making a radio show?” It’s not just a playlist, nobody else is doing it right now, so how am I going to convince an audience that this is what they need to be watching, right?

That is that is something that I’ve been struggling with, how to package it. That people understand what it is I’m doing and stick around, and I’m very much aware that this is going be a slow, long road, but because I enjoy it so much, I don’t really mind. I’m really in it for the long haul. I could do this for the rest of my life if I have to, like easily.

This might be my only struggle: there’s not a blueprint for what it is that I’m doing.

When I tell people, what is it that you do? I was like, I do this radio show on YouTube. It’s like, what do you mean? It’s exactly that – it’s a radio show on YouTube. I think that’s my only challenge, there’s no blueprint, which is also freedom at the same time, right? I’m not afraid to lose anything. I’m in a complete experimental phase, which is fun (also annoying sometimes).

Scenes, Ethics, and the Future of Music

Do you feel like there’s a particular sound or artist that you feel is emerging or is a deep love of yours through your discovery of music?

I have a lot of great artists. I think I’m just thinking of the emerging part of the question, right?

I feel like emerging is such a hard word for music snobs because if I’m gonna say a name, music snobs are gonna be like, “emerging? This guy has been out for a while”.

But like Mk.Gee, they are obviously having so much influence on today’s sound, they’re like the artist that every artist wants to work with.

Another thing that’s been talked about a lot is like the whole Danish wave that is happening. ML Buch, Fine, Elias Rønnevelt and Molina. I’m probably missing a couple, but that is something where the whole Danish scene is basically taking over the lo-fi electronic space, and with R&B influences as well. So I think that is very exciting and cool.

I think across the board, like that’s not really alternative, but like pop is back, very back.

I also find very interesting that I’ve interviewed Saba and Mick Jenkins, those are two underground hip hop artists, and they actually expressed how excited they are about the fact that hip hop is not popular right now because it just creates a field for people to get creative again and to get underground hip hop back, and I hope that that trend continues.

There’s also like this whole alternative R&B scene happening right now where, like I already mentioned Erika de Casier, but you also have like a keiyAa who’s like really expressive. I feel like you can put Blood Orange in that section, maybe you could even put Dijon in that arm of experimental R&B as well.

Do you feel like Amsterdam in itself has that influenced how you see music and maybe like how you feel about it at the moment?

I find this a hard question to answer ’cause I was born and raised there and I feel like when you’re born and raised in a city, it’s pretty hard to see its beauty and its quirks after a while sometimes.

I personally feel that in our case, the underground is disappearing a little bit and it has to do with COVID, I think. It ruined a lot, right? Gentrification too, but then at the same time, I don’t wanna say this too adamantly because I am a big house person in the sense that I stay inside a lot.

I don’t really have my antennas out there knowing what is happening in the city. So I might be saying something now, and then people from my city will be like, girl, what the hell?

Like I said, we compared ourselves when I was still working at the station a lot to the UK, BBC Radio 1 being one of them, and I think one thing that one of my colleagues always said is that you guys really take music seriously. It’s an art form and you can tell by the artists that you guys produce, which is no joke, right?

There’s like this pure thing I feel about people from the UK when it comes to music, you can also tell by the way that the government invests into music, and I do feel like that is kind of like lacking here in the Netherlands. One of our curators at this radio station said how different the Dutch music and people from the UK listen: if you play Oasis’ ‘Wonderwall’ in the UK, it’s like we know the song, its kind of like kitsch almost. In an Netherlands, it’s a good ass song if you play that, it’s like, wow.

The level in the UK is a lot higher, and the entry level in the Netherlands is a lot lower. Especially when I was still working at the radio station, taking risks with music is not a big thing, and I feel like it’s only getting worse.

The Netherlands has some other great things, but I wouldn’t say that the musical infrastructure in the Netherlands is as strong. That has something to do with like language barriers, right? If you’re a UK artist, you can still travel the world. If you sing in Dutch, it’s a little bit different right?

Isn’t there quite a big dance scene in the Netherlands?

Yeah, 100%. The Dutch are really good when it comes to electronic music. Martin Garrix for instance and all these other younger names, for sure – but then again, they’re not singing.

So where have you gotten your influence from over the years?

It definitely started at home first, like everyone, right? You start listening to the music that your parents listen to, then you start listening to your own music.

I think it started when I was 18/19 and I started working at a coffee shop and my colleagues and I were like battling with playlists and I think that was also the beginning, a little bit of when we started to use Spotify and stuff like that and really got into it.

I always find it hard when people say, where do you get your music from? Because I almost feel like it always just like comes to me either through clicking on a random YouTube video; or hearing an artist talk about another artist; or looking who produced for who and then seeing what the other person produced, and stuff like that.

My boyfriend is also, that’s one of the things that we bonded over, is also a big music nerd, we often exchange stuff. You know, I love to sh*t on Spotify, but then at the same time it’s also a great place to discover new music and new artists, I can’t deny that.

Recently I’ve been trying a lot of other streaming platforms for obvious reasons.. But it’s just annoying ’cause they got it on lock when it comes to the interface and the way you can discover new artists. I just hope that some other more ethical platforms can get the whole discovery and interface things together, cause then I will be out.

I’ve been really into Bandcamp for the last few months. When I started to look for other alternatives, I finally gave Bandcamp a chance, as in like a music discovery tool, and they really support their artists. There’s sometimes do Fridays where they pay the artists 100% of the revenue instead of like keeping a certain percentage.

They started doing that in COVID to support their artists and then when COVID was over, they kept that in. Bandcamp is a great platform.

Do you feel like a lot of listeners understand are aware of this and try to actively listen in a better way or support artists?

Maybe it’s in the state of the world we’re in at the moment, but it seems people aren’t as into the flashy ‘look at all my money’ approach also. Like, people are like done with the showy and fake, and we want the real. Do you feel like that?

Yeah, I agree. At the same time, I read a Substack article the other day about authenticity – and that authenticity now is overrated, and that the reason why Sabrina Carpenter as Chappell Roan and Addison Ray, for instance, work so well is because they’re clearly pop stars – they’re not themselves. They’re just pop stars and they’re giving you a character and that’s it.

I haven’t really figured out what my opinion about it is, but I did think it was a good observation because there is something to say for the division between a person’s personal life and their music persona. I think for instance, that’s something that really works for a Beyonce. This girl never talks, she never gets interviews, she doesn’t do anything. She just drops an album tours for two years and then she’s out of here. You know? And I think there is something to that old school, artist history, which I would not mind coming back to be honest.

‘Cause it’s just too much personality right now from everybody. It’s overwhelming, and don’t get me wrong, like I love it, but then because we have so many people now, it’s just, it’s a little bit too noisy.

And lastly, what motivates you to keep going?

Well the joy of finding and then sharing new music, obviously, but there’s also something and I can’t really put my finger on what it is.. I guess I decided for myself that I’m just gonna try to follow the feeling.

I’m gonna try to define why I have a good feeling about this, because I haven’t figured it out yet, and that’s okay.

So I’m just trying to go with the flow, which is sometimes the hardest thing to do, but I’m trying. Sometimes it’s easier said than done, but you do just have that feeling in your stomach and you’re just like, “I know that where I am right now is a weird thing but feel like if things were pre-assigned for us, it’s like you’re doing something that’s right for you and reaches a lot of people”.

You know, you hear these stories, right? These people who have like these very simple ideas, and all you can think about like, how did nobody else come up with that? It’s like I have this thing where I always try to make things more difficult and more complicated than they actually are. Well, sometimes it’s just that easy, and that’s how I felt about this idea.

I came up with it and I was like, “this is so easy”. I’ve been struggling the past two years, like, how did I not come up with this? I think I knew when I thought this.. it has to be a good idea.

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